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Creation vs. Evolution

Discussion in 'Intelligent Discussion' started by theguitarist, Apr 10, 2009.

  1. theguitarist

    theguitarist King of Grammar

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    So I tried this a long while back, in the 'messing around and talking' forum. It didn't go very well to be honest. So hopefully it will go better here.

    What do you guys think? Did god create the earth? Or did it evolve over time.

    My view is there is not god. There is no immortal being, who judges us and when we die he will send us to heaven or hell. I don't believe that he can be up there watching everything we do. It's too farfetched. It's pretty stupid really. That being said I'm not too sure on evolution either. The Big Bang Theory seems slightly un-realistic, but then again I'm not extremely knowledgable in that area. My theory is that the universe is infinite in age. I don't think it ever had a beggining, because for all this to start from nothing is very hard to fathom.
     
  2. Chaossama

    Chaossama Just a user, literally

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    Given that there are theories now about the possibility of a universe bounce-back where the Universe contracted into a single point and then bounced back out, I'd say that many people feel the same way in that the universe could not have just suddenly appeared.

    My personal theory is that the Big Bang did happen, but that there was something there beforehand, whether it was a shrinking universe or whatever. I don't believe in the Creationist point of view in terms of creation because honestly, they don't really make that convincing of an argument and their argument contains actual contradictions within it (showing evidence of the merging of the two authors of the Genesis story).
     
  3. TubaDude

    TubaDude Guest

    I think that it can't come out of no where as well. But I do believe that some higher power should have created it. If the big band theory were true, then how did whatever caused the bang get there? If you find that out, then how did the elements get there to create the elements for the bang. And in my opinion, it'll keep going and going until it gets to pure energy. And it is in fact a scientific law the energy cannot be created or destroyed. If it can't be created, then how did the energy get there? Maybe this higher power doesn't judge us if we go to hell or heaven. But There has to be something that started the whole thing and just kinda let it run it's own course from there. Then again, maybe not. If you get into depth with it, it is a very very VERY complicated subject.

    To stay on topic and to keep it short, I believe in both :thumb:
     
  4. sk8ernicky

    sk8ernicky The best of the best

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    Im just going to say something, the more questions u ask the more puzzled you get,the more you try to un knot the mystery the more tied up it gets, if u keep asking questions, it only gets bigger and bigger. its a mystery and practically nobody can say 100% which theory is real.
     
  5. zippity

    zippity n00b

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    Ridonkulus

    So I just got to the house after writing my three hour final examination on Biology: The Diversity of Life, which is almost entirely an evolution course. Yesterday I went go church with my girlfriend, and listened to a man speak with a masters in Theology (impressive for a pastor).

    I would argue that the two "theories" of creation and evolution are not in conflict with each other. I do not know why people still debate them, besides ignorance regarding either one theory or the other. They are on opposite ends of the scientific spectrum; but the real importance is in the word "theory".

    The creation theory is not really a theory, in the light that it is not used as a scientific apparatus with which predictions can be made. It's an explanation offered by religious leaders from the past, and much like most religious phenomenon (healing, resurrection, exorcism, life after death, etc) is largely based in faith. That said, the subject of "God" is not science based either, and cannot be argued with scientific fact or method. It's what logic students call circular reasoning. By declaring God as beyond human understanding, the subject of God is automatically impossible to manage scientifically.

    Take the belief "God is beyond understanding, and created the world" for instance.
    How did the world come to be? God created it.
    How did God create it? It is beyond our understanding.
    How do we know God created the world? It is written in various scripture.
    How do we know the scriptures are accurate? It has been proclaimed by prophets for thousands of years, messengers of God.
    How did God come to affect these prophets? It is beyond our understanding.
    Thus, one with a religious perspective can come to the conclusion that God created the world and he/she is beyond our understanding. The only reason I can find for a scientific individual to care even a pittance about what religion states is that the scriptures also have some more violent words, especially in the book of Leviticus, such as condemnation of homosexuality and the stoning of adulterous women. Thankfully, even (most) highly religious people exercise some reason.

    On the subject of evolution... it is a true scientific theory. First, rather quickly, an explanation: evolution is basically genetic variance and natural selection. It states that random variance in genetic code of populations allows a diversity of that population. Then, when selection pressure such as a predator, environmental change, or disease appears there will be some members of the population who survive, and some who do not. All evolution states, is that those who survive will live to procreate, furthering their survivalist genes. The next generation will also have some variance (from mutation, meiosis, etc), and only the best suited will survive. Evolution is incredibly logical and rather simple; within a diverse population only those organisms suited to survival will pass on their genes.

    The real use of evolution of course is prediction. Scientifically, putting together what happened in the past is nice, but only if it can help predict the future. And ta-da: it can. A great example is the recent appearance of so called "antibiotic resistant bacteria". By mass use of penicillin, we have been largely eliminating the bacteria that it can kill. This is a form of selection pressure, since only the drug resistant bacteria survive and therefore reproduce. Simply increasing the strength of antibiotics has been a temporary solution, but thanks to evolution we know we must seek out other solutions before a deadly bacteria which is drug resistant runs rampant. The theory predicts that bacteria will become resistant. One solution, by the way, is found here: "w w w .ted.com/index.php/talks/bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate.html"(sorry, you have to type it in, I can't post links yet).

    So science should not be concerned about what a creationist thinks... it should provide evolution as a model which can be applied to the real world. It doesn't matter whether it's "true", it matters how you use the information for the betterment of the human race.
     
  6. Rubylula

    Rubylula Like a mother bitch.

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    Ergh, God and judgement is just a way to get everyone to behave and play nicely. Personally, I think that we just evolved. That's about it. And if someone did create "us", why the hell isn't he/she/it stopping all the sh*t that's happening?
     
  7. The Alaskan Firedragon

    The Alaskan Firedragon Stupid Boy Whore

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    Because Ruby, life is a test. And he's a bit of a dick.
    Anyways, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe the creation story of genesis these days, so it depends whether you think the story of evolution is plausible.
    It is, very much so.
    So, yeah, I'm going for the whole Divine creator/Evolution combo.
     
  8. theguitarist

    theguitarist King of Grammar

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    Really? I know a lot of people who still believe in the story of Genesis.
     
  9. gwarhammer

    gwarhammer Cpt on the Ship of Fools

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    I would concur with theguitarist, since I know a large number of people in a variety of scientific disciplines who believe in Genesis in a biblical sense, and more who believe in creationism over evolution. So I would have to go for straight creationism on that score.

    If anybody wishes to follow this up, I will attempt to locate some of my old links to scientific journals/papers. No guarantees I'll find them, though.
     
  10. frankenfish

    frankenfish Computer Guru

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    does that mean you think evolution is false? because i have heard people say that god could have started the ball rolling in terms of evolution. the two theories are not always mutually exclusive
     
  11. zippity

    zippity n00b

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    I would also concur. Many of you might remember the Sarah Palin election statement that the world is some 6000 years old, and dinosaurs didn't exist, or something along those lines. By those around me, in university, it was ridiculed... but I don't think it was such a bad statement considering the number of Christians in America who believe it.

    Anyways, I firmly believe that the bible is only a moral guideline and code, and though it provides answers in that regard it is quite often metaphorical only. Though, one could argue that genesis for God was not in the human-understanding of time. Because the order of creation myths isn't so far off from the truth if you take 1 day to be 1 billion years or so.

    But to the other poster: I would be very interested, on a scientific level more so than to argue, to see the journals stating creationism... especially if they are by some type of biologist (not a theology, divinity, or philosophy PhD/masters/major). I've just never seen a biologist who believes in creation before haha, and I've met my share of awkward biologists.
     
  12. Chaossama

    Chaossama Just a user, literally

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    That point of view (that God set things in motion but doesn't intervene in regular affairs) is called Deism. Not too bad of a belief system, if you ask me as it at least tries to base their belief of God on the basis of reason and not simply faith. I have a few friends that are Deist, and they don't go advertising or whatnot, so that could be a point of view to think about if you're more in between (not willing to renounce God due to belief and not willing to renounce evolution either). Just wanted to inform.

    @zippity: Good point of view to have, that the Bible is more a moral guideline. Given that it was written about 2000 years ago (even if it was edited later on), I believe you cannot directly apply those lessons because the world has changed and cultures with it. However, it does contain some moral lessons that could be followed while not fully in the belief that you must follow every letter.
     
  13. Evolution is my theory because the thought of God making humans, animles, or shorter all of life on earth and their internal structure would not take 4-7 days.
    No, God would have to have plans and be a Pre-Da Vinci. Also God didnt make all of space (which is never ending). That includes all Universes, Solar Systems, And Planets.

    We developed from a microorganism (that thing i dont wanna say). Those developed into apes to humans. All land mammles have a ton of things in common. How could a white girl + white boy (depending on religion or race or whatever)= black, hispanic, chinesse, japanesse, indian, etc.

    The bible is just stories taken the wrong way. Someone wrote stories, someone else found them, they started a cult around God and Jesus. If Mary was a virgin, then ho the heck she get pregnent? Did God rape her with that angle? No! They were stories!



    The End!
     
  14. Angel of Game

    Angel of Game You want ban?

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    God creates this universe, world, plant, animal, then human. Then God creates a test, do humans worthy enough to have The Earth? Or perhaps they just a lazy creature that can't make any better?

    This world is also evolving within time. Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Dark Age, Renaissance, Industrial Age...

    I believe both of those theories. Do you have problem with it?
     
  15. Chaossama

    Chaossama Just a user, literally

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    I personally don't, and as long as you accept my own views on the matter, I don't care what you believe.

    Wish everyone could say that though, some pretty hardcore atheists out there, they give the rest of us a bad name. Unfortunately they're also the ones most people focus on -.-
     
  16. frankenfish

    frankenfish Computer Guru

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    i agree with you 100% there. i dont care what a person believes as long as they a: keep it to themselves, and b: don't try to tell me what i believe is wrong.

    have you read anything by christopher hitchens? i would say that he's probably the most respectable of the die hard athiests. i went to see him debate rabbi harold kushner and reverend peter gomes live. it was one of the best debates i've ever seen. i'd post some youtube links to him but i'm afraid of incurring Dharoks wrath. just google his name. Christopher Hitchens.
     
  17. Chaossama

    Chaossama Just a user, literally

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    Devin would get flamed up over that? o_O

    Thought that he generally just accepted youtube videos. But yeah, will look him up. I already have his book "God is not great" and it's pretty good, though slightly more heavy handed that I would have liked. So yeah, the debate should be good.
     
  18. Mr. Buttapple

    Mr. Buttapple Sell by Date, 9/01/2010

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    This thread is basicly Fact V Belief

    It is fine to belive, and fine to think about Facts but i think what people are missing is that the world isn't black and white, its grey, Perhaps God created the big bang that formed into millions of particles and then God assembled them to be the universe. It is not purely Fact or Belief, its knoledge of the unknown, The knoledge we are capable to think about.

    Blam!
     
  19. IrrationalPiMan

    IrrationalPiMan 3.1415926535897932384626…

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    Actually this thread is COMPLETELY Beliefs VERSUS Beliefs, and I'll introduce the "fact" aspect of it, now...

    At this time, from my meager understanding of life, the universe, and everything that is I cannot come to even a decent conclusion. There is no where near enough supporting evidence to even really define a single theory as the prime theory for our existence. It's highly unlikely that there will be any change to that situation during the rest of my life in this body, so it's highly unlikely that there will be "facts" in regards to this situation.

    The knowledge of the "unknown" is a misnomer as it's not unknown if you have knowledge of it (even enough to know that you don't have any knowledge of it at all except for that alone). The issue is that we don't know what we don't know that we need to know to know what we want to know.
     
  20. Gromlech88

    Gromlech88 Metal!!!

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    tbh, we, as humans will probably never know how we came to exist on this planet. for all we know there could be a god, there could be many gods, there might not even be a god and the big bang story true. There are many possibilities as to our existence ranging from the more popular and supposedly obvious ones to those that people dream up in their sleeps. Anything could be possible if there is a greater power controlling everyones life, not necessarily a god. But imo I think gods and things like that are a bit too farfetched for me so i'll stick with plain old evolution.
     

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